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"Most of the social democratic movements in Europe were developed under constitutional monrachies."
There is one fatal flaw in your logic an recollection of history of social democracy. Those social democrats you mentioned never supported monarchies and the absolute rule of one man. They just worked within the system to make democracy the supreme power of the land. Secondly, those monarchies presided over the rapid growth of economies and technological, social, and cultural progress, all of which may have made it possible for the social democrats to be less confrontational. But in Jordan, the situation is the exact opposite. Poverty reigns supreme, corruption sucks the national wealth and forces more Jordanians into the abyss of poverty, and cohabitation with imperialism and colonialism adds more insult to injury. The list is long and you refuse to accept that the regime bares ultimate responsibility for these failures. A true social demoract would speak truth to power. You don't. You blame lazy Jordanians, you blame rich people. You blame the world. But never those who make policies that fail. No one is asking for revolutions, we ask for truth, courage, and strength of character, all of which seem to be lacking in the new class of neo liberal opportunists. Just read Al-Ghad and you will quickly find more like this.
And pleeeezzzee! stop inflating the accusations against you. It's absurd when you play victim. You stake unpopular views and you play victim when people criticize you. You don't like it, don't have a blog. Start your own email list and keep your views to your admirers. You are no martyr of free speech.
One more thing. You play it safe and hide under the cover of a perverted version of history and a laughable version of courage that somehow compels you to "not look for cheap popularity by resolving to criticising USA and Israel and turning a blind eye on our own problems" So at the end of the day, you don't criticize the regime because you love it, and you don't criticize the US because its a distraction from our problems which are created by the regime's failed policies. Amazing how you found a formula to keep you in the good graces of the powerful and the wealthy, against your people. That's the essence of neo-liberalism.
Batir, You really consider standing up to imperialism and colonialism "cheap popularity"? But when you stand up to IAF, a Jordanian opposition that never engaged in terror or invasion and who are on the regime's blacklist, a sign of courage? MY GOD!
But for the record Batir, I do admire your stamina for willing to hear out the opposite views even when things get personal. So when all is said and done, your positives dominate. If you run for the parliament in my district, I will vote for you simply because of your willingness to listen, even though I think your views suck.
from Jordan
said:Abed hamdan, thanks for the note. I think some people just do not want and not willing to accept a response and they will never change their ideas of attacking me, but I am writing this as an explanatory note for all my readers. Some are willing to engage in a constructive dialogue just like Mr Odeh in the previous comments
from Jordan
said:Abed; you obviously did not read what I wrote in a good way. I respect everyone who is "standing up against imperialism" but this does not mean that we turn a blind eye on our mistakes. As there are 1000s standing up against imperialism every day I just want to be the rogue one with an effort to highlight our own problems, os this a sin in your opinion?
from Jordan
said:Odeh your comments are highly appreciated and highly constructive. I will respond in details once I get the chance to analyze more as I am just starting my working hours now. Again thanks for willingness to engage in a respectful dialogue. However, rest assured that I am not aiming for any seat in the parliament, and my only comfortable seat is in my house with my family!
but batir, when the 1000s who stand up to imperialism and corruption get burned and blacklisted, but you decide to fight the enemies of the regime and imperialism, while stying clear of criticizing regime failures and imperialism, you are not being the bold black sheep, you are risking being an opportunist. This is like an American saying that since there are 1000s who morn 911 victims and condemn Al-Qaeda, he does not feel the need to join the chorus. Now in the US few would consider such a position brave. Same for corruption and imperialism, both our non-stop 911 in Jordan. And please, don't tell me what happens in Iraq, Palestine, and Lebanon has no bearing on Jordan and Jordanians. because that would put you in the extreme, disconnected minority, again.
from Jordan
said:Morning,
Just commenting on the monarchy support thing; here is what supporting monarchy means for many who think like me:
No matter how beneficiary X monarchy can be for few individuals or even political streams, supporting it resembles a political stand that contradict with basic equal opportunities basis and equality among citizens.
Supporting monarchy reflects personal gain (which does not have to be a financial form of gain) and directed to one solid objective, protecting the family in rule (which does not have to always be the very evil family) and the style of country it provides with the usage of several typical arguments; like: the lack of other alternative to the danger of commies or Islamists to rule if the monarchy went down. (men bab el meseebeh elee bet3rafhaa a7san men el meseebeh elee ma bet3rfaha or 3am tefred meseebeteha.)
Supporting the monarchy in Jordan with its intense control over the major Jordanian social and political issues, to the tiny life details that affects every Jordanian day to day life; Taking into consideration the monarchy noticeable and witnessed strategy to enrich tribes thinking and streams, and weakening any hope for political regime-independent life to progress and grow contradicts with the basic objective of building a Jordan for all Jordanians with equal opportunities and fair ruling system.
I believe that any Jordanian with sincere love and dedication to Jordan the land and the people would realize that Jordan initial step for advancement steams from the local change where all Jordanians have equal chance to participate and implement and build the Jordan we all hope for, not a Jordan where only the monarchy and those who support it get to function and make sure that no one else can.
Btw, I am saying this taking into consideration that King abdualla him self talked about his vision for a different monarchy style in Jordan couple of years ago. But
Using the same execuse to explain failures will not get us anywhere, one person wether it is the king, me, batir or anyone can't change anything if we don't work together, don't forget that the king is human just like me and you, he doesn't have magical eyes and/or hands that can cure each and every problem we have in jordan. We must also not forget that there is old guard in our country, those people are POWERFUL, one person can't stand in their face so it is the duty for each and everyone of us.
Also we must not forget the region that we live in and what we are surrounded by, sadly non of "our" political parties have an agenda for what we call "jordan", each time you find us jordanians trying to defend our right to exist as a people of a country called jordan, which is really SAD!!
We need first to work on creating a national identity, we need to define what "jordanian" means, we need to have justice and equality then we can grow by education and knowledge..
from United States
said:We do disagree some times,but in the end of the day Hat tip.
"the king is human just like me and you, he doesn't have magical eyes and/or hands that can cure each and every problem we have in jordan"
Look, in all honesty I am charmed by King Abudllah's youthful energy and I don't doubt his desire to leave a lasting positive legacy. And I agree with you that he is only human and that he does not have magical powers. So the best way out of this stalemate is for the king to give the people more control. JUST MORE CONTROL over their destiny and the country's future. We are suffering setbacks in Jordan on many fronts, health, education, human development, political development, technological development, and even cultural development for chrissake. Even piss ant countries in Asia are ahead of us on many development indicators. Jordanians are smart. They are intelligent and they are well-educated. At least the King should give his people control of the legislative body. Stop rigging the parliament with 50% appointed and 40% from loyalists regions. We are worse than Syria in that regard. Let the people take a little more charge of their destiny. Let them learn from their mistakes and evolve. It's absurd to speak of developing Jordan without Jordanians. Heck even repressive communist china has a legislative body with more authority than we do with our joke of a democracy. Let Jordanians feel a sense of OWNERSHIP in Jordan instead of feeling like they are OWNED by someone and they are just tenants who must pay rent or else. The more the status quo continues, the more the devil starts to look better than the status quo. We get the impression that Jordan is someone's personal backyard. We are not some backward, illiterate constituents. It's just tooooo offensive to be treated like cattle and then when things start to fall apart you or someone else tells us the King can't do it alone. Jordan has almost a top-tire citizenship with the third world government. GIVE JORDANIANS MORE CONTROL OVER THEIR COUNTRY A
from Egypt
said:I really support the last post. However good or perfect the monarchy is, it can not be efficient without having a VERY efficient system.
1. VERY powerful parliament
2. Some level of harmony and cooperation in civil society
3. This can not be provided without giving all kinds of civil freedom to the citizens. Including the right to kick out the monarch when s/he is not suitable enough. (Which usually leaves us with limited chances ===> Only one family)
dear IRC, 1 & 2 and parts of 3 sound good. but i am not sure most jordanians would consider the second part of 3. fact is the jordanian monarchy has been for the most part "benevolent" and not prone to massive brutality seen in many other arab countries. no acid bath for opposition figures, no massive bombardment or gassing of restless cities, no unchecked powers for law enforcement. our pains as a country tend to be growing pains. mostly concerns of a citizenship that has matured and expects more in terms of control of its destiny. we simply have outgrown our old shirt and we need bigger ones.
from Egypt
said:I meant here conditions and the power. Not actually doing it at the moment.
I mean there can be a chance of disastrous situation like King Hussein / Palestinians issue for example which could have led to civil war in my opinion.
I'm saying this example focusing on the danger of the situation, not any other factor to prevent any side talks. When the Monarch feels that he can fall down from his chair if he did crazy things for ANY reason, or in other words: Citizens felt their freedom, political reforms are usually more effective, and in usually shorter time.
Anyway I'm not that experienced with Jordanian issues, maybe I'm talking from the perspective of an oppressed so-called republican country, but I lived in several Monarchies. And sometimes I felt that people like the feeling of being under a Monarch, like providing more stability or something. I'm not sure if this is the case of some Jordanians like the Blog writer is trying to send the message to others.
Personally this is what I think: the best Monarch system can be a reform of Britain. Where the Monarch spend some of the people's taxes to optimize the political scene. But just look at the date of British political struggle: 1200s :)
from United States
said:Rami,
So we agree on 99% of the issues, but you have to adress the sensitivities in the jordanian society, me and you can debate logically but what about the othe 90% of the people who only understand fighting? Will east jordanian be cool if the palastenian majority ruled? will it be ok if hamas supporters ruled jordan and we get bombed everyday? lets say we became 100% democratic state, can we say anything about any country around us?
Our goal is the same, but we must agree on the means, me and you know that the king is the most progressive and liberal jordanian but what about the other 99% of conservative people, democracy will become a tool that will be thrown after achieving the goal..
When we all understand that democracy is the goal not the tool we will become BIG..
from United States
said:I'm really frightened by the way some you guys are talking, it brings back the specter of Jordan during the period 1969-1971. I don't know why but I get the chills when people start pushing too much for democracy, social democracy, and liberalism and so on and so forth. I think that the question that needs to be asked by everyone is: Do you enjoy living in Jordan today more than you did prior to 1970 or you enjoy Jordan prior to 1970 more than you enjoy it now. If the answer is the latter then you should continue talking about democracy, pluralism, and government by the people for the people from the people. If you don't then you should shift your line of thinking from politics and direct it toward economics. Haven't you heard the saying "it is the economy stupid". I never heard anyone making a living by thinking or even acting on creating democracy, I did however hear about someone making living by working or starting new business or trading or importing or exporting.
from United States
said:. Yes Jordan has many pitfalls but can one make it on their own if one works hard and keep their nose clean, the answer is a resounding definitive yes s/he can. Politics is more or less a prestigious job you can't make money from talking or even participating or engaging into politics. I think that the government should be thanked for the simple reason of keeping the security and tranquility a way of life since 1970. Just imagine what would have become of Jordan if the chaos and lawlessness were allowed to go on for much longer than what it did let alone until our present day, I'm too scared to envision something like that, perhaps Jordan would have become worse than Rwanda and we would have mutilated each others like the Tutsi and the Hutu. I think that if it weren't for the events of 1970 Jordan would have marched toward real democracy much sooner; I also think that if the Palestinian problem would ever get resolved it will also help Jordan take a more modified political course than the current one. Let us face it the demographic make up of the Jordanian society prohibits it in the meantime from transforming into real democracy; it would be as if you are asking Israel to include all of the Palestinian into the Israeli democratic system.
from United States
said:Can someone provide an example of "neo-liberal policies" (I assume you mean American policies) that are directly harmful to Jordan?
Setting aside oil (which Jordan doesn't possess), Iraq (which the U.S. will probably withdraw from soon enough--for better or for worse), and the Palestinian issue (which, short of a miracle, is likely to be as intractable as ever), what things would you like to see improved between the United States and Jordan?
After all, corruption and poverty aren't going away in Jordan simply because the U.S. abandons Iraq and the Palestinian issue is resolved. Are there measures the United States could take to help to encourage reform on Jordan's domestic front?
from United States
said:. Do you know what will happen in that case, Israel would lose its Jewish character and would cease to become a Jewish state? The same goes for Jordan, if Jordan would allow all of its Palestinians carrying a Jordanian citizen to have a vote regarding its future; Jordan would lose its Jordanian character and would become a defacto Palestinian state. So since without any shadow of doubt we all know these facts why do we keep nagging about democracy, election, and blah blah blah. If you love Jordan you have to love it as is not as you want it to be, it isn't going to happen, if you can't stand tolerating Jordan the way it is you can leave it any time you want and many people did and regretted later on and returned after so many years of absence and some toughed it out and never returned. The bottom line is you can't have the country run the way you want it running, even in the United States the government still do things against the wishes of its own people. Look at what is the current percentage of the American people asking President Bush to get out of Iraq?! Over 70%. Is he listening? So why should the king or the Parliament listen to what we say?! Transformation from one political system into another requires a lot of preparation, maturity, and tools of the trade; Jordan still lacks many of these traits. If we still can't tame the people to stop smoking in public places, stop them from throwing garbage from the windows of their car, or to form a single line, or to stay quiet during meetings, how are we going to trust them to make decisions during crisis time?! In my opinion Jordan is as good as it can be -it has come along way since 1970 and if the current trend continues Jordan will be a very successful state in comparison to other neighboring nation states.
from Egypt
said:Why should the Parliament listen to what we say, this is the thing I'm talking about.
What is the original idea of Parliament? Representation of people.
If the parliament did not represent the people who voted them, then excuse my French
In the case of Bush, please, the American way of voting is REALLY complex, you can NOT apply it to any other normal voting system, comparing in our case is really irrelevant.
from United States
said:Batir allowe me to qoute you
"My support of the Hashemite regime is based on the fact that it is a tolerant regime that is progressive in its social and political positions which has managed to run the country to be in a better socio-economic position that all our neighbors"
First of all who told you?you are better than your neighbors?do you have any empirical study to support your argument ?? هذا أول خطأ وغلط في مداخلتك
If there is No scientific evidence to any of your argument, then it is considered false.
Batir ,, أقتباس
"You can always try to imagine the situation with a regime that is either Islamic, Palestinian (alternative home) or tribal Jordanian which will all exclude their opponents from the political stream and even from expressing any opinions."
Again ,,your argument is based on imagination and assumption,and imagination is helpful when you write poetry or a novel,again your argument has no scientific evidence.it is only based on imaginations and fiction.
Batir ,,don't expect to convince anybody as long as you use fiction, imagination and assumptions
from United States
said:Allow me to reiterate my profound appreciation for your blog. Your arguments are NOT contradictory and they are NOT hypocritical. In my humble opinion, your efforts represent the new movement of dialogue. The plethora of attacks on your blog should not in any way be interpreted as an attack on you. I am actually be proud that you are generating debate, albeit harsh, it is still better than other means of expression. I support a constitutional monarchy in the real sense, when Jordan reifies its de facto separation of powers and checks and balances.
To quote Jacque Derrida
“No one gets angry at a mathematician or a physicist whom he or she doesn't understand, or at someone who speaks a foreign language, but rather at someone who tampers with your own language.”
Dear Mohannad, Hatem: every despotic regime in the world and their hired thugs can give justifications for repression and denial of political rights. in Jordan, once it used to be fighting communism, then the PLO, then fundamentalism. at the same time, the Syrian regime was repressing Syrians in the name of fighting Zionism and fundamentalism. the Iraqi regime was repressing Iraqis in the name of fighting Persian conspiracies. in Morocco it was fighting communism, in Tunis it was fighting fundamentalism, it's all about control of money and power. It's the mentality of the common gangster magnified 1000 times. To me, the arab regimes are thugs who point their guns at the Arab heads while their hands are in their pockets. That's what it's all about. Thuggery, protected by uncle sam in the name of protecting uncle sam's interests. And this money and power goes to people like you. Hence your reluctance to give it up. That's the Arab Mind.
Common guys. Did the regime pay for your house? car? school? land plot? job? what was the payoff?
from Egypt
said:lol
WE paid OUR things you mentioned in the last post. We are tax-payers I guess? We here is mostly the working class (middle and below).
from United States
said:Wendy,,you hit the nail on the head, unfourtunatly ,many Jordanian Bloggers are fed propaganda and lies from the day they are born.
Fortunatly ,on the other hand, change is coming slowly but surly whether they like it or not,they like to delay the process but they can't stop it.
Wendy,
Saldy we didn't get anything from the regime, so to argue that each and every one who supports the regime must have got something is a fallacy. And please don't try to be sarcastic because somehow it is not funny and regarding comparing us to the countries that you mentioned is somehow insulting because we are better than all of them givven the circumstances, and I would like to be compared to malysia and singaphore not syria and iran because we saw what "conspircay theorists" and the ayatollas did to their countries..And also one more thing I suggest that you go to the rural areas in jordan where some people worship the regime, at least I am being logical...
And please don't become what you hate, if you want a debate at least be respectful and "logical", but don't you see how simple it is, stop balming anything and start the process of change until the I suggest that big mouths shoud eat some candy..
"Saldy we didn't get anything from the regime,"
Oh. I see. So like Batir, you are just a selfless, old fashioned lover of despotism. Poor you. And please, don't dare compare your regime to Malaysia or Singapore's, both regimes turned their country's into heavens of prosperity and technology and boast a flawless record of fighting corruption. Your regime gave us a police state and a handful of millionaires and a sea of poverty and misery. But it seems only those who live in ivory towers see ivory.
"if Jordan would allow all of its Palestinians carrying a Jordanian citizen to have a vote regarding its future; Jordan would lose its Jordanian character"
Hatem, you have spoken like a true Zionist. You blithering fool. What's a Jordanian character?
Palestinains speak Arabic, Jordanians speak Arabic, Zionists speak Hebrew.
Palestinains are overwhelmingly Sunni, Jordanains are overwhelmingly Sunni, Zionists and Jewish.
You moron. What's Jordanian character? How can you differentiate between a Jordanian from Irbid and a Jordanians From Irbid but with parent's birth place in Jenin? You moron. Is your falafel square? Do you even understand what you are saying you dumb ass.
from United States
said:I personally have never heard that someone in Jordan or outside Jordan carrying Jordanian citizenship calling for regime change, I just don't understand where is this business of regime change is coming from! I heard people talking about curbing the wasta system, talking about political reform, more freedom to do different things, but a regime change is a new and foreign demand to me. I'm willing to bet you even if you survey the people in Jordan using a secret ballot without having to even mention their name, the overwhelming majority will come out in support of the regime. You all saw the spontaneous outpour of compassion in the rallies following the November 2005 bombing of the three hotels. People in thousands come out and in an explicit unequivocal manner declared their full support and loyalty to the regime. So the bottom line is that regime change was never an issue in Jordan , the people are fully behind the regime be that the native Jordanians, the Palestinians of the Palestinian origins, and the Jordanians of Palestinians ancestries. The other minorities from various other parts of the world have always been staunch supporter of the regime. If someone wants to argue this issue please does so because I'm not convinced that it is an issue at all. Show me some statistics calling for regime change, show me any hints, nuances, or any other appearance of people desiring regime change, so unless I'm totally blind, I swore to Gad that I haven't seen or heard of it since 1970.
Farrar,
Don't you have any other argument? did you read the comments before that?
Reading disorder-->Cure is--> Glasses and/or school and/or eating candy..
And please don't be so judjmental, because you don't know me and I don't know you.
I wish we had ivory, but I am trying to get some by "educating myself"
Respect..
from United States
said:Farrar,
I’m not going to stoop to your low level and start using expletives and epithets but if you don’t know what a Jordanian character is then go and look it up in the dictionary. The Jordanian character is a Jordanian character as opposed to Syrian character as opposed to Egyptian character as opposed to Lebanese character, and so on and so forth. What does the language has to do with it? What does the faith has to do with It.?! Character is a salient trait that distinguishes one nationality from the other nationality. For instance in America there are all kinds of people from every corner of the world but they all share one single character and that is the American character. Jordan is no different it has the right to establish its own character which is the Jordanian character, it is okay to speak Arabic and at the same time have the Jordanian character, it is okay to be Muslim shii or Christian from any denomination, or agnostic for that matter and have the Jordanian character. I hope that you have been edified by this explanation.
from United States
said:Farrar.,,i love it, give it to them man,
hatem abunimeh ,have heard of Ali abunimeh ,the web master of Electronic Intifada,go read this brilliant Blogger,he is of a kind ,maybe you can learn something.
from United States
said:Alurdunialhurr
You know the saying: There is more than one way to skin the cat;Ali has way and I have mine.
from United States
said: هيثم
يا حبيبي عليك وعلي امثلك الامريكيه,علي أبو نعيمه لايسلخ القطط,قدتكون أنت سلاخ القطط,أما علي ,فهوا كاتب رائع
from United States
said:Alurdunialhurr
You know the saying: There is more than one way to skin the cat;Ali has way and I have mine.
from United States
said:Calling people names do not serve any purpose.
HATEM!! HO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT REGIME CHANGE! DO YOU READ ENGLISH??
This is about a legislative body that should represent Jordanians fairly, and a justice system that should be blind to Jordanians' last name, and law enforcement that can enforce laws fairly. We want a state based on law and order and justice, not a state based on tribalism and corruption. We want a peace of mind, and not to feel like we are getting screwed everyday of our lives.
from United States
said:3alashan,
Fair enough I want the same thing, can you tell me how do go about getting it.Honestly, I'm tired of rhetoric.Thank you.
from United States
said:مره ثانيه يا هيثم,قد تكون سلاخآ لقطط ولكن علي ابو نعيمه كاتب ومفكر وباحث رائع ليس له مثيل
"Fair enough I want the same thing, can you tell me how do go about getting it.Honestly, I'm tired of rhetoric.Thank you."
يعني لو سلختلك بسه او بستين يا هيثم, أنا أعتقدسوف تجد الحل
Just check him out at this address
http://electronicintifada.net/newsandanalysis.shtml
from Jordan
said:This is a very impressive level of debate. Thank you all for participating, either the bloggers who have their identity open and the anonymous commentator(s) with changing names.
Layla; thanks for presenting what supporting monarchy means to the ones like you. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to not believing it, especially when you do not provide substantial evidence about your claims.
from Jordan
said:Rami Hamam; I think your comment is very reasonable. It adds to the arguments for more constitutionalk monrachy with power to the people. I also advocate for that, although I feel it will result in negative outcomes in the begenning as the "people" that you want to give power to are not "organized" in political parties or streams apart from the Isalmists who will drive us to the abyss if we allow them to implement their agenda. However, your point is theoritically correct but requires a well organized and structured socio-political grassroots systems.
from Jordan
said:IRC president welcome to this blog and I hope to see you more. In retrospect, monarchies are spraeding in all Arab countries with republican monrachy now emerging. If it is implemented in Egypt it will set a standard for all other countries. Traditional monarchies have provided better results than republican ones, as Jordan and Morocco are more progressive and open than Syria.
from Jordan
said:Mohannad, in your response to rami and IRC I would personally not introduce the Jordanian-Palestinian equation in a situation that should be settled by citizenship rights and responsibilities. The rights should be given to all Jordanians who should share the responsibility of belonging to one country in the political sense. In the cultural sense each one is entitled to sing and dance and speak his accent and eat his own food.
from Jordan
said:Tommy, of course the USA can be serious in linking their huge financial support to Jordan with some real progress in democracy and human rights and sustainable development, but all it cares for is Israel, oil and open market economy.
from Jordan
said:Al Urduni Al Hurr this is a quick glance into the UNDP Human Development Report 2006 to compare Jordan to some other Arab countries but not to Iraq and Palestine under occupation or thge wealthy gulf.
GDP per capita: Jordan 4,688 US $, Syria 3,610, Egypt 4,211, Lebanon 5,837, Tunisia 7,768, and Morocco 4,309.
Population without access to improved water resources: Jordan 3%, Lebanon 0%, Syria 7%, Egypt 2%, Morocco 17%, and Tunisia 7%
Population below poverty line ($2 a day): Jordan 7%, Tunisia 7%, Egypt 43% and Morocco 14.3%
Public Expenditure on health % of GDP: Jordan 4.2%, Tunisia 2.5%, Lebanon 3%, Syria 2.5%, Egypt 2.5% and Morocco 1.7%.
Public Expenditure on education % of GDP: Jordan 6%, Tunisia 8%, Lebanon 2.6%, Morocco 6.3%.
Internet users (per 1,000): Jordan 110, Lebanon 169, Tunisia 84, Suria 43, Egypt 54 and Morocco 117.
I hope that was "empirically good" for you. You can draw your conclusion from the color of the lense you are putting.
from Jordan
said:Bint Al Badiya thanks for your insight, I really appreciate it.
Wendy saying "Common guys. Did the regime pay for your house? car? school? land plot? job? what was the payoff?". Another round of personal accusations, not worthy of an answer.
from Jordan
said:Al Mutanaqal: "many Jordanian Bloggers are fed propaganda and lies from the day they are born.".
Wow, so you have been appointed as the custodian of wisdom in the blogsphere? Why it isn't you who have been fed propagabda from the day you were born?
from Jordan
said:Farrar, by saying "you dump ass" to a commentator you reflect your limited ability to respect other opinions. isn't the main element of democracy (faught by the regime and its thugs and advocated by you, as you claim) is the respect of other opinions?
from Jordan
said:Al Urduni Al Hurr saying "Farrar.,,i love it, give it to them man". Wow, sound like a cheer leader for Al faisali and Wehdat than a civilised debate. Where is your Ganwa man?
from Jordan
said:3alashan, I cannot argue with what you said, but can you please provide a description of how such a system can be built. I have my own assessment but whould like to hear yours first.
Batir,
I wasn't trying to introduce anything, I simply stated the sensitivities that exist in the jordnaian community. Maybe me and you and rami will accept the majority to rule, but will all jordan do? Even in university elections they fight and stabb each other(salti-shamalati, 3edwan bani hasan, etc...) so are we ready? the answer is no or else we will either become saudi arabia or iraq..
Hatem, this is the debate of the deaf. You know the answer but you keep pretending it's a mystery. Did you read anything anyone posts or do you just like to hear yourself talk?
1) How about a legislative body that represents all Jordanians equally and fairly geographically as well as population wise. Sort of like Congress and Senate.
2) How about official institutions being accountable to that legislative body such as ones who collect taxes, enforce law, fight corruption?
3) And to protect Jordan's security, the King runs foreign affairs, military and internal security. So even if Hamas or Commies or Anarchists win by the will of the people, at least the people have a chance to control part of their destiny, for better or for worse.
But to keep choking Jordanians under the guise of protecting Jordan is silly, considering this approach brought us so many social and economic and political problems today. THERE IS NO JORDAN WITHOUT JORDANIANS. AND IF JORDANIANS WANT TO BE COMMIES THAT'S THEIR RIGHT. IF THEY WANT TO BE ISLAMISTS THAT'S THEIR RIGHT. AND IF THEY WANT TO BE IDIOTS, THAT'S THEIR RIGHT. So long as the King can leverage the military to ensure a peaceful transition of power if one party decides that democracy is just a chance to create another dictatorship. Sort of like Turkey. The people decide, but the military protects the country in cases of extreme emergency.
from United States
said:First of all, your comparative economic theory can only be applied in ideal sitting and environment ,which means you have to have the same country like Jordan ,exactly the same in population size ,in geography ,in natural resources,in absolute monarchy, in history, topography and of course in mentality .Having said that,to compare one country to another is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
second,alowe me to quote you"My support of the Hashemite regime is based on the fact that it is a tolerant regime that is progressive in its social and political positions which has managed to run the country to be in a better socio-economic position that all our neighbors especially those with rich natural resources, size and population."
Again Batir,you are not even following your own argument,you have been selective in your choices to compare one country to another, which i never approve of or adhere to your defunct comparative theory.
Your selection of countries like Syria.Lebanon,Tunisia or Morocco are bad examples for one reason only.you have failed to bring all Arab neighboring countries record to the table,such as Qatar,Dubai,Oman,Sudan,Muritania,Saudi Arabia,United Arb Emertis and many others so you have even failed to follow your defunct Economic Comparative theory.
Third,,the economic indicators that you listed does not approve your point that Jordan is ""better" than other countries,and that the Monarchy in Jordan has contributed to that "success"
Fourth, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
"The rights should be given to all Jordanians who should share the responsibility of belonging to one "country in the political sense."
Now you are talking. Even though I sense your objection to the "jordanian character" comment stems from pure self-interest, you being a Jordanian of Sharkisian extraction. So everything to you at the end boils to self interest. That's selective liberalism, or could it be oppurtunistic liberalism. But wait, they already coined a term for that: neo-liberalism. Sort of like what many Jews do in US, who are a minority, when they speak of liberalism and freedoms and democracy to protect their asses but when it comes to their Zionist self-interest in Israel, where they are the dominant player, they metamorphose into run of the mill fascist thugs, racism supremacy cruelty and all. I am about to loose my faith in liberalism when I see people like them and you call themselves liberal. I think this may explain while so many young arabs have given up on secular ideologies.
One more thing Batir, please stop using statistics from other Arab failed states. We all agree we want democracy EXACTLY because of the mediocre numbers you are showing us. Quote me Singapore, Tiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, even Israel. of course when despotic states fail, people become more radicalized, and the regimes find excuses to justify repression to the West by pointing to the radicalization they have created with their corruption and repression. A vicious cycle ensues of repression and terror. Who would have thought 20 or 30 years go that perfectly healthy young Arab would strap bombs to himself. What sort of despair has taken over our region. And how do the Arab regimes deal with it? by the same way they have always dealt with it, the way that brought us to where we are, more collaboration with our enemies and more repression, add to it a new twist and that's "starving" the opposition with deliberate shifting of development resources away from those area and the targeting of charitable organizations who support those areas under the ironic headline of fighting corruption and terrorism. and gets worse and worse and...
from Jordan
said:Mohannad, I clearly understand your point and live it on daily basis. However, to be "ready" requires taking concrete actions in enhancing citizenship values and not using the internal division as an exaggerated cause for inaction. There will be some mistakes and problems, but eventually we should be able to take this elusive step to proper citizenship where everyone is accountable and treated at the same level. This will remove the biggest weapon from the hands of the regime haters.
from Jordan
said:Jameed Jeddan;
Point 1 is correct.
in point 2 the current parliament is constitutionally empowered to make the government accountable but they do not use this empowerment in a positive way for the sake of people.
As for point three, Jordanians will not be commies or islamists since they will be a mix of all ideologies and belief systems and they will need a governance system to make sure that all their views are presented and that a one-approach system will not lead them to war and destruction as the Islamists want.
from Jordan
said:Al urduni Al Hurr, you really puzzle me to a point that I cannot comprehend. Wasn't you who challenged me to provide "empirical evidence" which states that Jordan is better off than its neighbors? Did you want me to compare Jordan to Chile and Burkina Faso?
Then you contradict yourself in a miserable way. You first say that Having said tha,"to compare one country to another is like comparing Apples to Oranges" then you want me to compare Jordan to Saudi, UAE, Oman and you forget that I said I am not gonna compare Jordan to oil producing countries or countries under occupation to make the comparison more reasonable.
Then you say that I did not use did not prove anything, well show me your talent in providing indicators that prove YOUR theory.
from Jordan
said:Abu Email, I can surely make comparisons between Jordan and the countries you mentioned (Taiwan, Korea, Sigapore and Malaysia) but remember that:
1-Those countries do not have occupation and violence on their borders.
2-Those countries do not have to welcome 20% increase in their population each year.
3-Those countries do not have Islamist and Nationalis parties that want to fight imperialism and zionism instead of building the country.
4-Those countries have populations that respect the ethics of work and productivity values.
5-Those countries have natural resources in energy, water, agriculture and biological resources.
Balance these factors with the differences in governance systems and you will see we have done a good job in Jordan.
from United States
said:"4-Those countries have populations that respect the ethics of work and productivity values."
I just can't believe the words that come out of your mouth, Batir.
That's what white European settlers thought about African Americans,Chinese and anybody is not white skin, this is pure racism ,and now you are blaming poor people for their economic miseries, I gusse,you will never run out of propaganda to protect the regime.
from United States
said:"Those countries do not have Islamist and Nationalis parties that want to fight imperialism and Zionism instead of building the country"
Who told you so, they mat not have Islamist to fight imperialism,but they do have parties that are apposing globalization and imperialism.
from Jordan
said:Al Urduni Al Hurr you should know better than me that any comparison with the work ethics of the East Asians is always a lost case. Koreans, Malaysians and Singaporian have more professionalism and dedication than Americans and Europeans and not onlky Jordanians. No need to fool yourself and the readers with theoritical propaganda. Try to spend one day in a public institution in Jordan and see the work ethics there.
Fighting globalization and imperialism in East and South Asia is always done through hard work, providing alternative policies, working for the better interest of the country and not immersing people with a tsunami of slogans, just like you do.
from Jordan
said:Al Urduni Al Hurr you should know better than me that any comparison with the work ethics of the East Asians is always a lost case. Koreans, Malaysians and Singaporian have more professionalism and dedication than Americans and Europeans and not onlky Jordanians. No need to fool yourself and the readers with theoritical propaganda. Try to spend one day in a public institution in Jordan and see the work ethics there.
Fighting globalization and imperialism in East and South Asia is always done through hard work, providing alternative policies, working for the better interest of the country and not immersing people with a tsunami of slogans, just like you do.
Dear Batir, as always, your answers never fail to reflect to total disconnectedness from anything social or democrat, as you like to always describe yourself (made7o nafsehe). Please see me replies to your sad answers.
"1-Those countries do not have occupation and violence on their borders."
Now that's one bogus assertion. It shows you are desperate to win arguments at any cost. Even those who do not follow the news will tell you that South Korea is under constant threat from North Korea. Tiwan from China. Malaysia from Indonesia. Not to mention it was war that transformed Russia from a third-rate country into a super power. India was a colony and a sea of poverty, today it still has poverty but has also technology and near super power status.
"2-Those countries do not have to welcome 20% increase in their population each year."
Funny thing is you whine about population increase, but since the country's founding the Jordanian regime has tried everything possible to attract immigration to the desert of Jordan. It's this increase in skilled or financially-endowed population that brings money for infrastructure projects and other economic development. The Iraqis paid generously to live in Jordan, before they come (oil) and after they came (full payment for any social service they get) and when it's time for them to leave, you will feel the weight of their departure when they pull their investments out of Jordan. And let us not forget the west banker's contributions to the growth of Jordan. So please don't use positives as negatives. Without west bankers and iraqis, what do you think Jordan would be? a sparsely populated arid desert. this is not a joke, this is a fact.
"3-Those countries do not have Islamist and Nationalis parties that want to fight imperialism and zionism instead of building the country."
But you must remember that those countries don't have
"3-Those countries do not have Islamist and Nationalis parties that want to fight imperialism and zionism instead of building the country."
But you must remember that those countries don't have rulers who betray their people and don't collaborate with their enemies. How many South Korean leaders made secret plans with North Korea? how many Tiwanese leaders work secretly with China against their people?
"4-Those countries have populations that respect the ethics of work and productivity values."
Here we go again, blaming Jordanians for being lazy. you are hopeless. I will make a special prayer for you Batir that one day you will find yourself without work and have to take up a job as a waiter for 150JD to support your family. I will then see your work ethics.
"5-Those countries have natural resources in energy, water, agriculture and biological resources. "
But even the natural resources that we have, due to corruption and mismanagement, we failed to exploit. Japan has no natural resources. Neither does Switzerland. Then look at other Arab countries with natural resources. They are failed states. Do you think your regime will fair better with natural resources? heck we neglect our schools as we build tourism projects. What's that got to do with natural resources? When you have a problem with natureal resources, you tighten the belt as a regime and fight corruption so your money goes farther. We don't start worthless projects that waste money while our children go to schools with open roofs and decaying walls and filthy bathrooms.
But you prove an important point, that Jordan without west bank or syria or iraq confederation will always be starved for human and natural resources. Alone, Jordan is vulnerable and at the constant mercy of uncle sam's crumbs and israeli protection.
But let me give you my version of why I think those countries have done well and Jordan continues to stagnate:
1) their leader's personal bank accounts are not bigger than their country's
2) their regimes don't see their citizens as a cow to be milked and their country as a get-rich-quick scheme.
3) Their regimes' are known to put their country first, not cover it up with cheap slogans.
4) Their regime's do not collude with colonialists and imperialists to the determinant of their own people.
5) BUT ABOVE ALL, Their people enjoy a social and economic safety net and freedoms and above all, their people change their regime when they don't like it, even if this change brings islamists, like in Malysis, Turkey, Iran.
So I guess if you are a regime apologist, you will not agree with my points, and you will constantly find excuses for failures. or worse yet, in your case you see no failures. You keep hunting for indexes showing regime performance to be better than some other mediocre country.
Batir, I suggest you start endorsing reforms to make the Parliament truly representative of Jordanians. That's the least you can do if you wish to call yourself a social democrat without people like me laughing at you.
Jordanians will give their government a break if they believe it cares and it has done its best. This is a tough call in a country full of politically-aware citizenry. The old empty slogans just don't work anymore. You or your Masters can go on TV day and night to tell us Jordan is doing great, thanks to them. But we live the reality. If Jordanians have to tighten their belt because we are building a nuclear facility, they will. If their kids will go hungry tonight because we are at war with the israelis and the army needs all the funds, they will. If kids will miss a meal because taxes must increase to subsidies their children's education and healthcare, they will. But to make a dozen Jordanian family suffer for some fucking regime brat wanting to buy a new car or go on vacation (opps..I mean a trip to conference to bring investment to Jordan) or to fund some harebrained project meant to indulge a megalomaniac official who thinks he has a god-given wisdom (despite the constant failures) or to pay for someone's new villa. SCREW THAT!
from United States
said:بتير,,لن يكون هناك مستقبل لي أى دوله عربيه ما دام هناك شئ أسمه أحتلال وتبعيه وهيمنه أقتصاديه وسياسيه وثقافيه علي هذا الوطن والشعب الحبيب,نعم أريد بنأء بلدي ولكن كيف ونحن نري هولاء المحافظين العرب الجدد أوالعرب المارينز من أمثالك ,الذين زفقوا وزمروا لحتلال أجنبي أت الي هذه المنظقه لنهب مواردنا الطبيعيه,من النطام الصهيوني العنصري الي الاستعمار القديم الجديد لن يسمحوا لك في بناء وطن ديموقراطي عادل أو نسبين عادل لئن أذا تواجد نظام ديموقراطي عادل لهده البلاد,حتمينأ سيسقط هده النظام ألستعماري ومن وقف ودعم وأزرا
from Italy
said:Don't care about this Batir, but go on: accusations to be an agent of CIA and a support of Zionists is always ready behind the corner for free thinkers, journalists and bloggers!
We also had some dicussions about that and I know that you aren't pro-USA or pro-Israel. Indeed: Zionism shouldn't be considered an insult like "racist", because there is a historical movement called "Zionism" and that supports the historical right to Jewish people to come back to their original country from the times of Bible, side by side with Arabs, that have the right to have their State of Palestine (terrorism willing!). You (and I unluckly generally do) put on the same level the occupation of Israel and Islamic extremism and terrorism... so you can't be considered in anyway a pro-USA and pro-Israel.
Last thing: I'm sure that monarchy has still many and many steps 4 a democracy in Jordan (isn't this process too slow in real?!), but Spain is a monarchy, Scandinavian penisula is a series of monarchy and you can't tell that they aren't democracies at all.
from Jordan
said:Kreen your last comment to Alessandra was omitted because you used bad words that reflect your ethics. The following commnets on this post are being moderated from now on since people like Kreen do not respect the free space in this blog.
from Jordan
said:So Alessandara you want to tell us that Zionism is good and despotism is fine and resistance = occupation. Thank you for the sense of humor.
from United States
said:"Zionism" and that supports the historical right to Jewish people to come back to their original country from the times of Bible, side by side with Arabs"
And now we have new Italian historian by the name of Alessendra,
where ,when, and how long have you been studying the History of Palestinians and Arabs????.
Did you ever bother to read a book about Palestinians history??
The answer to my question ,is no Allesendra,you so ignorant and have no clue
Well Assendra ,I can say the ottomans and Turks have the right to rule Eroupe,and matbe, the British have the right to go back and rule United State,Oh ,Maybe the Italian can go back and rule Ethiopia ,the dutch and go back and rule south Africa ,the Belgium can go back and rule The Congo and maybe the Arabs can go and rule Spain and France ,oh and maybe ,the French can go back and rule Algeria , this is how you see the world Alessendra???
Allssendra,I like to advise you,stop being ignorant and start reading real books.,and don't be selfish to to yourself ,good luck and good day
from United States
said:Batir..are you going to be selective and baised ,just because Kreen,wrote something offensive that does not give you the right to delete her/his comment,let Allesandra defend her argument,you should not be or act like mukhabaret.
from Jordan
said:Al Urduni Al Hurr, you are a frequent contributor to this blog and you know well that I only censor personal insults and using bad words. If someone calls you a bad name what level of defence will you reply with?
You see that I approved all the comments that include substantial input.
from United States
said:you know Batir,,I really don't care if people use profanity toward me,let the reader decide for them selves.
from United States
said:Most people who come to your blog, are adults and they can decide for themselves, what is right or wrong.
from United States
said:Batir, I read your main article, and some of the comments.
There is a simple concept that you will find most people in the Arab and Islamic worlds have simply forgotten. This simple concept is called "assuming good faith."
If you Google the phrase "assuming good faith," you will find that most of the results relate to a central principle of Wikipedia. Editors on Wikipedia are required to "assume good faith" when they see changes by other editors.
Some people will say "well, if it's a wikipedia thing then it's really new and we haven't really 'forgotten' it," but I think they'd be wrong in saying that, because we do have the Quranic verse that says "إن بعض الظن إثم."
The fact of the matter is Batir, the points you responded to were unfounded accusations made against your person. You do not have to invoke the history of other nations to defend yourself. You do not have to present evidence that proves your innocence of the accusations these guests level at you.
The burdon of proof .. is on them, and merely doubting your person doesn't provide that proof.
When everybody is volunteering their opinions (self included), they are bound to present ideas in a way that doesn't make sense, seems contradictory, appears to be wrong, or is just out right wrong to begin with, but do people always present either good opinions or bad, never both?
The people who end up resolving to personal insults and leveling accusations only expose their inability to respond to individual items one by one. Their view of the matter at hand is always from 3000 feet above, always looking for a summary judgement on the piece of writing they are reading. The goal seems to be to reach a quick judgement on the person doing the writing: are they good or bad?
If the general theme of the piece doesn't mesh well with the general attitude they have tow
from Italy
said:Thx, Batir, for the omission of the comment of Kreen, that I didn't read...
I think that two comments by Murad X and by Urduni Al-Hurr don't need any answer.
Ps. Also pro-Israel and Zionists people can tell me that I'm ignorant... and I'm.
from United States
said:Damn, half of my comment was swallowed up somehow. Either by me by mistake when I submitted it, my browser, or by Jeeran :S
Sorry about that, and I can't recall all of what I had said, but the gest of it is: people need to exercise more reasonability when they are debating topics.
And there was one note I had for another commentor which is that we shouldn't get carried away and start denying simple facts, like the fact that the creator of this blog does actually have the right to delete comments. It is not a crime, and not a violation of any policy. All you can do is argue that it would have been better had he not done it, but you can never argue that he didn't have the right to do it, because he does.
Why is this important? Because to me, it reflects our obsession with the issue of rights. Because we live in a region where human rights are continuously under harm, we become obsessed with them. We start trying to view every avenue of interaction as a test specimen to determine whether rights are being violated or boundaries overstepped, in a way that defies logic and reason.
When this happens, we should be alarmed, and we should adjust, and come back to our senses, and try to maintain a calm head, then we can continue a productive *detailed* debate of the *several* points each person presents, and do it *one by one*, without making the goal summary conclusions on the person him or herself.
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from Jordan
you don't have to explain anything for anybody. People will talk to anyway, just keep on doing what you believe in.
رضا الناس غاية لا تدرك