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from United States
said:Neo means new.
And you are absoultely correct, they don't know what it means..They link it with zionism!
Anywho..
batir, since we live in jordan and not in the USA, the jordanian definition is what matters.
read Nahid Hattar's work as one way of understanding neo-liberalism and you will know the Jordanian definition, which to me overrides the american definition since we are in jordan not in US.
here is an example of how definitions mean different things in different countries. In China today, conservatives are those old school communists who want to stop decentralization and roll back free market reforms and go back to pure communism. In the US, they call such people progressive leftists.
in the US, conservatives, like Republicans, are anti-centralization and pro free market. so one word may mean one thing in one part of the world and another. the intelligentsia decides for each country what it means.
In the Arab world, neo-liberal means fake liberal, the complementary political movement in the Arab world that exists to service the American neo-conservatism agenda..
Arab neo-liberals are those who claim to advocate liberalism but limit it to economic and social liberalism while undermining political liberalism, which is the cornerstone of western liberalism such as democracy, equality, freedoms. they also use liberal speak to rationalize illiberal agenda.
you can quickly identify a neoliberal arab by their guiding principles: treason is peace; arabs are not ready for democracy; personal freedoms are a substitute for political freedoms; privatization is not driven by state interests but by personal interests of the undemocratic elite; etc...
from Jordan
said:Haj when you use english you have to abide by its definitions regardless of what you might call an apple, to the rest of the world its an apple not a loopa.
So even your example fails to understand the term conservative, its not the ideal and motives that define a conservative but the fact that a conservative is slow to pick up on change and resists it.
that failure to understand concepts and terminology is what makes you ascribe the wrong label to things and offend people, and that applies to your label of the neoliberals with treacherous, infidel qualities.
i guess that is the problem for true liberals is that they get attacked on bases on the lack of proper communication channels with the general public, and thats why they try to focus on the economical and social freedoms to elevate the level and quality of intellect in the population to be able to handle the demands of democracy rather than sheeplishly recite "islam is the solution"
and i don't think batir is a neo liberal but a good liberal
ENJOY!
from Jordan
said:Haj thanks for the contribution but I am afraid I am gonna disappoint you by refusing to consider Nahid Hattar as the reference for defining neoliberals. This guy has been calling each one of his intellectual and political opponents "combradors" while he is earning more than most of them as a salary.
Neoliberalism is an economic term. Some of the so-called pro-American neoliberals in Jordan are actually the most conservatives of politicians and economists.
I agree with you that the majority of neoliberals in Jordan and Arab World have neglected political liberalism but that does not make them representatives of "liberalism" in general. Even social liberalism was not advocated. many of the Jordanian neoliberals (agents of multinational corporations) may end up killing their sisters if they talk to strangers. The only common interest for Jordanian neoliberals is privatization dollars with no political context. They can be supportive of the USA or against it if the USA is not benefiting them.
I will mention something about a real neoliberal in Jordan in my next post.
bam, you fail to understand that each culture understands words differently. it's stupid to ignore the obvious fact that charged words such as peace and moderation and neoliberalism have nothing to do with any universal definition. it does not help to be narrow minded when you want to understand culturally-specific terms. your failure to do so will ensure that you will constantly engage in the dialog of the deaf.
from Jordan
said:charged what ?
look if you want to use cultural specific terms then use them in a cultural specific language and don't borrow foreign words and redefine them the way you like.
if you want to use an english word that was coined by foreigners and tell me that it means something totally different (and pretty much goes against the original meaning) in jordan where they speak arabic then pardon me if I don't object.
anyways i don't want to waste my breath here since u said my argument will fall on deaf ears since you seem to not even get the basis of what am saying
bambam, any pontification on this subject is immaterial. fact is, neoliberalism is already being used in the arab world by the arab intelligentsia to mean certain things that contradict the US definition. and that is that. whether you approve or not, will not change anything.
let's not forget who is a moderate in the american eyes and who is an extremists. let's not forger what "fair and free elections" mean to zionists and americans , unless you consider the ultra jewish orthodox congressman Tom Lantos and his gang to be a fair-minded Americans.
when we speak math, you can possibly argue right and wrong; when you argue linguistics, it's absurd and narrow-minded to argue right and wrong. neoliberalism is a contemporary term, unlike liberalism, which has a history and established norms and practices. people fought and died for it. neoliberalism is just another malleable term like moderation and peace. so it's silly to argue that it's something with a clear definition, just as it's silly to argue that moderation is a term with clear definition.
from Jordan
said:Haj Fareed Ruff: let me summarise your approach:
1- Use a term coined in the west in English language that sounds intelligent.
2- Redefine it, the way you wish to be in the Arabic context.
3- Reuse the redefined term to criticise people who differ with you.
4- Reinforce the reused and redefined term in the Arabic culture so it becomes untouchable and a part of our vocabulary for political onsluaght.
Doesn't sound logical to me.
from United States
said:I'm with bambam and Ruff in this discourse, I consider myself neo liberal yet I'm very conservative in my interpretation of liberal issues. Bottom line is like bambam said: An apple is an apple any where in the world.
from Egypt
said:hatem i dont get how i can have the same opinion as ruff since I was arguing about the difference of opinion between us.
batir: let me summarise your approach.
1- you take a word with a well-established meaning in the arab world, the describes perfectly well the behaviour of faux liberals.
2- Redefine it, the way the Americans like to, along with their definition of moderate and peace.
3- attack those who refuse to go with the american definitions.
Doesn't sound logical to me.
and for the record batir, try to read your sources before quoting them:
Wikipedia: "Neoliberalism is not a unified economic theory or political philosophy"
repeating an earlier post, there is not mathematical definition for neoliberalism. so please stop insisting on something that ain't.
from Jordan
said:Riz let me remind you that I was not the one trying to Arabize and Jordanize a global term. Again, the definition is the same for any object or ideology from its origin and it is difficult to localise it. This is why a term like "secularism" has not been rooted in the Arab World although it is practised almost on daily basis by those who oppose it theoritically.
grrr.... and they say why we are hopeless, when the argument about an ideology got stuck at the semantic part of the argument
only because of the unhinging mentality of some to never stick to any of the basics.
they twist and mangle what is already established. i think you need to go over your basic logic classes before you go about spouting tard at people.
as for your quote could you please, pretty please understand that quoting something and cutting it midway through the sentence is mute in trying to prove a point finish reading that sentence and you will get it.
your logic is from now on am going to use the word "computer" to denote what you would call in arabic a ma7ay and whoever disagrees with me is an ignorant zionist fool
BRILLIANT!
from United States
said: Economics and politics go hand in hand ,there is no way you can separate the two from each other , at the other hand,neoliberal are people ,organization ie IMF and the world Bank or think tank that promotes lassie fair economic philosophy ..
In Jordam, neoliberals and "liberals" (whether they are in government or outside it such as Batir are marching together holding hands to allow Multi National corporation to take over economies such as Jordan macrhing, and good example is Basem Awadalaha (Al- Bahlwan) is an example of neoliberal and off course his Boss is also neoliberal who for the last 5 years has been selling People Assets for garage sale prices,neoliberal are nothing but desgrace and charlatans who will sell their mothers and "their" people to the highest bidder.
baboon, you are excatly the reaons why we are stuck in the mud of backwardness. totally closed minded. totally unable to fathom the other point of view. you memorize but you don't comprehend. this is why we are having this discussion.
batir, you are defying gracvity and reality when you say we cannot localize words. in politics, words are very localized. did you read anythin anyone posts? what about MODERATE and REFORMS and TERRORISM and EXTREMISM and RESISTANCE. all of these words are localized. so please, you and wambam, stop beating a dead horse.
from Jordan
said:Al Yrduni I am actually marching had in hand now with a cup of Nestle hot Chocolate as a symbol of my neoliberalism with multinational Corporations. I will be back now to strike deals with the 45 comapnies I am an agent for.
3eed I will certainly follwo your advise and stop beating dead horses strating from now.
from United States
said:Batir,,I used the word "marching as a metaphor.
you don't have march with them hand in hand,you can always promotes neoliberals philosophy by advocating their position in writing ,as you always do ... 
from Jordan
said:Al Urduni how many times you laugh in an ordinary day? Seriusly.
from Jordan
said:It's been a pleasure to visit your blog, we'll be glad to receive your valued participations at our website: www.sarayanews.com (Saraya News Agency).
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from Canada
I had to google neoliberalism a while back after I saw so many people calling other people that. Including you.
I think 99% of the people using it are using it incorrectly. They have no clue what it means.
nice post