Well, did Mr Dhahabi declare to you the Terms of References of his assignment? I have never seen a head of the intelligent department revealing his mandate to a reporter. If he has done that he must be a liberal minded person!
Thanks for taking the time to write this note. I appreciate your effort at
critiquing the article. Please know that I will keep in mind the substantive
points you made.
Warm regards,
| Bookmark this post: | ![]() | ![]() | ![]() | ![]() | ![]() |
Add a Comment
BLAAAAA BLAH BLAH...
did you notice that you again wasted your time in an unprofessional blabber that was so inaccurate it is not even worth discussing.
1.Two points here, you should have waited on his response before you post your worthless rant.
2. the worthless rant was full of personal attacks (that you yourself complain about). how can you tell the man's work a third class journalism effort and awaste of money. that is just unacceptable in an educated discussion forum.
3. if you believe that you are a patriotic Jordanian you should start by using your mind and not surrendering to the current uatocratic masked dictatorship enforced on us over generations of the prophet sons.
wa mish bass hashmi hashmi...
ya bna annabi wa lili mollooki risaltonn
your comments same as nasir judeh, govrment spokesmen. who paid u?
from Jordan
said:As you notice my dear three commentators until now, Mr Daragahi was more reasonable and appreciative of the notes than yourselves. I am really shocked why it is only in Jordan people consider attacking their country an act of courage while defending it is nonsense and unreasonable. Let me say, in defending my country I am crazy and not only "unreasonable" in your definition, whether you like it or not! I have never seen in your three comments any substantial argument to say that I was unreasonable. You say I subjected him to personal attack but he attacked my country first.
Qader, no body paid me to be patriotic. Maybe this is not familiar to you which I can understand but there are people in this country who love Jordan without being paid for.
from Jordan
said:And he actually responded to this kind of letter!
Omar,
if you noticed it was not too much of a response as much as it was a "whatever" note. Mr. Batir goes on a 700-word rant with a media-stunt photo to match, and gets a 25 word thank you note!
Batir,
You admit you personally attacked him and you were not objective (or informed for that matter) , and your excuse was that he attacked your country!! Again ignoring the incoherent stuff you wrote in your email, I just want to make one point again:
You cannot question someone’s patriotism or judge it by his bowing to the king. The king is the sole decision maker in Jordan and he is not a GOD nor a prophet (actually he is inexperienced and mistake prone), even if he has the best of intentions and is working for a better future for Jordan. Your duty as a Jordanian who loves his country is to try to rectify this situation, not to sing and dance along.
Batir,
I am confused. I no longer know where you stand on any issue. You call your self a social democrat but your reaction to the LAT article is very right-wing. I can see people liking the king, but your defense of the the human rights situation is schoking and your defense of the escalating violations goes against the facts.
Then your dealing with the Shiite issue also contradicts everything I know that is either social or democrat.
Batir, you are still trying to fidn your way in the world and nothing wrong with this. One question to ask yourself, are you willing to pay the cost of being a liberal? if so, you have to really understand whay it means and live by it. Your reaction to the LAT article and the Ghad atricle (a non-reaction) startled me.
from United States
said:Batir,
man, sorry, bas fada7itna. your email is so incoherent and your arguments are so senseless that most people can write a better email while drunk.
ok, what brought 'descendants of tribes' to 'imagine Jordanians as people riding camels'? Also, how do you make assumptions that the Palestinian groups he's talking about are pro-Hamas? See, you criticize the writer for making assumptions supposedly without having any real knowledge. And about the Intelligence Department chief, come on man, what kind of answer is 'I have never seen a head of the intelligent department revealing his mandate to a reporter.' No, you have... you saw it in the CIA where they declare on a daily basis that they're fighting terrorism, you see it in the Mossad on a daily basis that they're fighting groups that threaten Israel's security, you see it on a daily basis with Pakistan when they say they're looking for Bin Laden and looking for a solution with the tribes on the border with Afghanistan.
Again, you accuse an established journalist in one of the most read newspapers in the USA of low-level journalism, yet you don't live up to the standard of information that you set for him. Or does the fact that you're Jordanian make you an expert on the topic? No, I will buy his reporting before I buy any of your ranting and raving.
As for his response to your email. I'm sure that was a generic response he sends to all critics of his article. Don't give yourself too much credit.
In other words man, JALLIS.
from United States
said:Batir,
man, sorry, bas fada7itna. your email is so incoherent and your arguments are so senseless that most people can write a better email while drunk.
ok, what brought 'descendants of tribes' to 'imagine Jordanians as people riding camels'? Also, how do you make assumptions that the Palestinian groups he's talking about are pro-Hamas? See, you criticize the writer for making assumptions supposedly without having any real knowledge. And about the Intelligence Department chief, come on man, what kind of answer is 'I have never seen a head of the intelligent department revealing his mandate to a reporter.' No, you have... you saw it in the CIA where they declare on a daily basis that they're fighting terrorism, you see it in the Mossad on a daily basis that they're fighting groups that threaten Israel's security, you see it on a daily basis with Pakistan when they say they're looking for Bin Laden and looking for a solution with the tribes on the border with Afghanistan.
Again, you accuse an established journalist in one of the most read newspapers in the USA of low-level journalism, yet you don't live up to the standard of information that you set for him. Or does the fact that you're Jordanian make you an expert on the topic? No, I will buy his reporting before I buy any of your ranting and raving.
As for his response to your email. I'm sure that was a generic response he sends to all critics of his article. Don't give yourself too much credit.
In other words man, JALLIS.
from Jordan
said:All my dear respondents, thank you very much for being so "rational" while your country is being insulted. If it takes to take such a negative position to show your "modernism" and "civilized" way of thinking then I am proud of being irrational.
My country is above everything.
Proud Jordanian if you think that I have "fada7et" you then why you did not use your super intelligent mind to write something to defend the country you are proud of its nationality.
After reading such responses I really pity the fate of this country with so much low level of patriotism.
I am going to respond to your notes one by one starting now.
from Jordan
said:Rayyan Hadadbeh:
I am a social democrat and a patriot too and there is no contradiction. I want Jordan to be the best country in the world. I want it to be free of corruption, with social justice and equal distribution of wealth and democracy to all the people who love Jordan. Those who do not love Jordan and stay here like staying in a hotel with no loyalty at all I do not care for one second about them. You cannot slam Jordan day and nught and then expect to be treated in a good way. You cannot plan to kill people in the name of religion and be free to do than in the name of human right. You cannot call other people infidels and expect to be allowed to cause problems.
I am a liberal but I cannot sell my country to be a liberal. Whan someone attacks my country I will answer back.
from Jordan
said:Hashmi I am not questioning the loyalty with the King but it makes me really mad to see you all jumping to defend the LA times article. His article is full of lies and mistakes and you consider it as a good example of journalism becuase it attacks the king. I do respect the King and I think the monarchy is a better regime than all other alternatives which you know them all so I am defending my country by defending the King in this case. In all other cases I always write in criticism but no one is allowed to insult my country.
from Jordan
said:Proud Jordanian; why don't you use of super intelligence to rise to the name you are carrying and write something more coherent. The writer once mentioned Palestinians as against the relations with the USA and them he says they want reform and democracy.
The head of the GID has never mentioned his Terms of Reference in his assignment and it is only assumption again.
What the hell is the definition of an established journalist? he came here, met with a corrupt asshole who has been brought into the cabinet because he is the son of another corrupt person and then talked with an anti-terrorism expert in the Paris and then says the King will suffer a fate like the Shah. If a freshman in a journalism college writes such an article he would be given a bif "F". This is our "inferiority" complex thinking that westerners must be superior to us. I have seen a lot of so-called experts who do not know nothing and go on to write baseless decisive statements about us as if we are guinea pigs. You are always free to buy their rotten products if you have the inferiority complex.
I do not give myself credit for the response of a westerner journalist since I give myself credit when I feel satisfied with defending my country.
You tell me JALLES and I will tell you Stand up to the name you have given to yourself or use another name.
"All my dear respondents, thank you very much for being so "rational" while your country is being insulted."
There is a difference between patriotism and opportunism, and you are no patriot and your love for Jordan is just words. Words are cheap Batir. Just because you say you love Jordan, it proves nothing. so stop playing this game because anyone can play it and sound more patriotic.
Give us one sentence where the LAT article insluted Jordan? one sentence where the LAT article insulted a Jordanian citizen?
You are not defending Jordan and you are not defending jordanians. You are defending the government's mistakes.
Second, most of the criticsm was directed at your poor writing and was not in support of the LAT article. So again, you are wrong.
please don't try to play the patriot and pretend that somehow you care more than we do. i think you are purely motivate by an opportunistic self-interest and embaressment at the critique directed at your poor writing.
you are a tough guy Batir. just deal with it and move forward.
And do you know who is Jordan's enemy? those who wrap themselvs in the Jordanian flag but contrinute to the corruption, mismangement, wasta, and stifle free speech and choke civil society. Which is what you did in your defense of the mistakes of the govt.
OK!!! CALM DOWN EVEYONE!!!
Batir, this is the world of Blogging. It's tough and commentators take no prisoners. So please don't get upset. this is the first time I see you break down like this.
Now lets all agree that we all love jordan but in different ways. We have the liberal camp and we have the traditional camp (Batir, you surprised me) and thet all love Jordan according to their schools of thought and values. Some see the government as inseperable from the poeple and the country, some don't. That is that. But we all agree that we support our troops :) love our country and love its people.
This reminds me of Republicans accussing Democrats of being supporters of terrorism and being blame-America first, and how Democrats accuse Republicans of being facists and anti-liberties.
So let's not play this silly game of who is a patriot and who is not. No one wins with this game.
So people lets take a DEEEEEEP BREATH. Exhaaaaaale.....
Move on to a different fight ;)
from Jordan
said:Ali and Dabbous thank you for bringing the level of the heat down. I certainly needed it.
Well Ali, I can say you are right in some of your claims. Yes I can be stubborn, even irrational and over-heated and of course that article was not good writing since I was not participating in an essay exam or an IELTS exam. One thing I have to make it clear to you and all of my critics out there: I am no opportunistic and I do not work for my self interest. If I was opportunistic I would be in a very different position now. I am a proud Jordanian middle class citizen who is an employee and my only source of income is my salary. i do not own a land or real estates or stocks and do not even have a social security and pay for all my health and my success on 31st of December is to remain free of debt. If this is opportunism to you then this is a new definition.
I do not support the government. The governance system in Jordan is rotten and corrupt and there is no way to deny this and I always write about this. However I feel the King is genuine in his work for Jordan but he is served by a corrupt circle. Until now I believe the King is honest and genuine and I will continue to support him because I do not want an Islamic state in Jordan, or a one-party ultranational system or to settle the Palestinian cause at the expense of Jordan.
Yes we all love Jordan in our different ways, as long as we do love Jordan I have no problem.
This was not a healthy debate but nevertheless it was useful and an eye-opener for me.
Ali I completely agree with your statement: "And do you know who is Jordan's enemy? those who wrap themselvs in the Jordanian flag but contrinute to the corruption, mismangement, wasta, and stifle free speech and choke civil society". However I did not intend to support the governemnt in any means in my reply and I just wanted to reflect my anger for the attack on a King that I think is honest and must be appreciated as he deserves
from United States
said:"met with a corrupt asshole who has been brought into the cabinet because he is the son of another corrupt person." So is what you concluded from the words 'mid-level cabinet member'. Again, you're talking out of your backside and making wild assumptions about someone just because he made certain remarks. That man may very well be an honest man with an honest father with an honest family, mish 3eib 3aleik? I don't defend him but I'm telling you you don't know anything about this man to insult him like this and draw conclusions that are based on your prejudices.
"What the hell is the definition of an established journalist?" I'll tell you. It is a journalist who is allowed to work for a newspaper that actually has a process when approving what to publish. At the end of the day legitimate news agencies in the US are liable for what they publish and can be sued, which means they have a rigorous process of vetting their sources and stories. That is unlike our wonderful news outlets that allow the publishing of stupid articles that embarrass me as a proud Jordanian.
Yes, I am a proud Jordanian. You are not the standard for Jordanian pride, neither is anyone else as far as I'm concerned. I don't attach my pride in my country to one person, but to the 5 million people in it. Don't ever claim a monopoly over 'patriotism' and love for the country, because you're lying to yourself and your people, making you the enemy. Your rhetoric reminds me of the Bush administration's; the only difference is that despite all the flaws in it, they at least articulate it a little better.
Salam.
I actually agree with you on the King. I consider him outside the definition of government. But I do fault him for being too hands off, unlike his father allayerhamou who had his hand on the pulse of the nation. But recently, I am sensing more involvement from the King and I hope it's not fleeting.
So yes I like the King but the government has so much to atone for.
"met with a corrupt asshole who has been brought into the cabinet because he is the son of another corrupt person"
batir, let us assume u r right,
my question is who appointed them in the first place?, who holds responsibility for appointing a corrupt prime minister and a corrupt government? who appoints the GID chief?
I would love to see an elected government, would love to see officials facing trials,
u know what annoys me, it is double standards, it is that we have laws that are not enforced or enforced on the weak people, if u steel 10k JDs u go to jail maybe for 3 or 4 years, if u insult the king u r sentenced for 3 years, elbattikhi stole millions and add to that he took benefit of his position which is a much worse crime and he escapes with a 4 year sentence that he spends in a private house, and please dont say the king doesnt know about it....as long as he is the head of all authorities he must know about that.
i have no problems with the king or with the monarchy, even the king himself said once that he wants at some point to see a constitutional monarchy, but what steps did we take in that direction,
a step in that direction will be the way the government is selected, these corrupt circles must be broken.
i believe the king should work as a positive force in that direction.
let us fail 100 times and introduce bad tribal leaders or islamists or corrupt people as prime ministers, but these people can face trials, they will be responsible for what they do. doing that the people will learn the democratic process...
sorry for the long reply..but i hope we agree on some points for the benefit of our beloved country.
from United States
said:well, i was surprised how all reacted to batir's response to the article of so-called journalist... this journalist wrote an article, and batir responded to it...i thought u would all thank batir to what he did...but as the trend i see in usa, arabs just jump to snap eachother's throats...
1. how do u know that this journalist is so established...just cuz he got him self a column to write in, doesnot mean that what he wrote is above all...
2. i guess it takes months if not years to come up with those conclusions or assumptions i would call it...
3. i as jordanian with palestinian root, i would never attack jordan, cuz from my personal experience there i would say this journalist is mistaken and the common ppl know it... and i guess just being patriotic is not a charge...not yet i guess..
4. we have a saying, dunno how u guys will take it, it says "my brother and i, against my cousin, and my cousin and i, against the outsider...". i guess my bedoun's roots is talking here and i am proud of it...
5. i guess u all have some personal hidden agenda and unfinished business with batir in person...dunno how accurate that is, but u guys, showed that clearly in ur response to his letter to the journalist.
when will be the time when we all be engaged in a civilized discussion without killing each others...when??
when would we ever gonna get rid of the comples : "he is western, so he must know it all"...believe me ppl here in usa r so shallow thinkers, and take it from me, one who lived with and around highly educated ppl and mainly Phders...
so what they say or write is not "holy"...and it is not above critisizing...
chill out all and peace...
from United States
said:I think I may know who paid that LA journalist to write that article. But I can tell you; it's out of jealousy, and personal hatred. That article was a mix of truth and false. And we all know what is true and what is false. We do not need the Americans to tell us what's going on inn our country. Just hands off Jordan, please. The Islamic movement in Jordan does not have in its strategy to topple the king like what has been done in Iran. Wake up people, Jordan is a small country, and barely meets the definition of a state. So the writer of that article has some hidden agenda he is trying to pass. Smart people read between the lines. Batir tried to do what he can to answer him; he may or may not have hit the target of that article. But he tried.
Personally I think, the article, was to stir many things in the small state of Jordan, one is the balanced relationship between the Islamic movement in Jordan and the King, second the growing resentment towards the corrupted Governments that one come after the other, even the king is trying to rectify that, but corrupted government comes from the people. I have not seen imported Government, all came from the people. So when the people clean their act and produce clean governments then the King does not need to spin his wheels cleaning Governments.
With limited figures and limited resources of people who can be in goverernments to choose from I think the King has his hands tied.
Be honest people so you can have honest government. KAMA ANTUM YOWALA 3ALAYKUM, so if you need to change this (as the King tried, yet he needs some honest sincere people to help) situation start raising your kids the right way to produce honest non corrupted citizens, then blame it on the KING if he brings some one from outside Jordan to rule.
As for the Americans, that’s what they need to middle with our affairs someone stirring things in the USA with the name of democracy in Jordan. I know we don't have the best, but we cannot
from United States
said:Abdullah,
Do you really think the Americans need an article to meddle with Jordan's affairs? I always thought that all it took was a phone call! Thanks for clearing that up, though.
from United States
said:Yes Ahmad, an article started Sudan Darfor issue of interfering with Sudan, and possibly invading it. When a small valued article coincide with the USA interest of the area and its plan for it, that can present itself handy to amplify the issueand make it an excuse for them to invade or interfere. I don't know about a phone call you may know more things that I don't know. I only comment on what I know and analyze from what I read.
By the way I don't know why the rest of my comment above did not
publish, I will assume its a memory issue and will not accuse no one of anything
from Jordan
said:Abdullah I got another post from you which was identical to the first one, and I did not notice a continuation, so please if you have the post again please resend it with all my apologies for the mistake.
"KAMA ANTUM YOWALA 3ALAYKUM,"
In a democracy, that's 100% true. But we do not live in a democray and if you try to change the regime you will be jailed, tortured, expelled, or shot. don't blame the people for the things they cannot do, blame them for the things they can do. and that's not much, if you are not living in a democracy since the poeople cannot arrest the corrupt (we know how high this corruption might go), you cannot make the anti-corruption laws, you cannot enforce the laws, you can just be keep your hear low and say La Hawla Wala Qu'wata ella Bellah. and every once in a while, go blogging to let off steam :)
from Jordan
said:Batir, I posted a comment yesterday here but it didnt appear!
Anyway, I wanted to thank you for your excellent reply.
I don't know why some people outside Jordan can't leave us alone!
I can't possibly imagine having any better King than what we have. One can be blind to see all the efforts our King put in the past couple of years to push this country ahead.
from Jordan
said:You are a McCarthist, you should look that one up, if anyone doesnt agree with you, or thinks your not a good writer or even dares to say that you are wrong.
Our country is not insulted by the article, what did you benefit in the last 5 years, compare it to what you would have had if the status quo had remained.
You are just being "patriotic" because you are afraid that anything else might prove someone else right, and god help us if that person is an American.
I hate bush, but I also hate being yelled at by an American soldier in Amman and not being able to do anything because they give us half our budget and hence can use our airports the way they see fit, this is not right.
Try that first.
Add a Comment
<<Home















I think you are being extremely unreasonable Batir.
And I don't take pleasure in saying that.